00:13
Peter Dunn
Good day. Good day. Good day, everyone. It's Peter Dunn, pete the planner, host of the Pete the Planner show. It's so good to be with you. Yet another week. That was mildly insincere, though, if I'm being honest. It sort of just started to come out. I had to finish the sentence, but alas. Hello. Joining me this week special guest co host, the newly appointed director of education at your Money line, Kristen Ahlenius. Hello, Kristen.
00:42
Kristen Ahlenius
Hello.
00:42
Peter Dunn
I'm so happy to be the by popular demand, may I note that you are back? Have we decided? Are you the queen of education? The queen of content? Because your queen title always is with you. What direction have we chosen?
00:58
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, the queen of Texas, the queen of peanut butter eggs, the queen of right. I think the queen of content works for me. I like that.
01:07
Peter Dunn
All right, well, Kristen, welcome back. It's good to be with you. Damian will be our field reporter this week. He will be with us here in a few minutes, actually, several minutes. He will come in to do the news. But let me get the banner lined up here because I know how much the podcast audience loves when I talk through visuals. Look on the ticker this week. I even put a little title for you on there.
01:32
Kristen Ahlenius
Look at me good, because I never know the lyrics. I have to Google them every time, so that would have been embarrassing.
01:39
Peter Dunn
Jeremy notes possible listener of the year here in 2022. Good morning, Dunn's. Wait, dame, you did something different with your hair. Looking good, by the way. Pilot. Jeremy, I was on your airline quite a bit a couple of weeks ago, and again next week, I will be on your airline quite a bit, and my goal is always for you to be the pilot of that ship, and someday that dream will come true. I don't know. Kristen, I have this story to tell you. I coach a girls 13 year old soccer team, and last night we had practice, but then a lot of our girls weren't there because they were running in the middle school track meet, which was actually on the same campus of which our soccer practice is. So the last few minutes of practice, I was like, all right, girls, let's go support our teammates.
02:30
Peter Dunn
So we all went over and they were wearing their soccer training kits. They all have the same sort of thing on. So we go up against the fence and we're watching the track meet. So it's like seven of us, and then there's like, seven girls from the team there, and they all come over. It's like this nice moment. I took a team picture with girls in track uniforms and our soccer thing, and there were a couple of girls on my soccer team who, by the way, I'm not making fun of tween girls here. I'm just, like, trying to help you understand how different the 44 year old brain is than maybe the 13 year old brain. So two girls are sort of reluctant to go up against the fence. They're sort of standing back, but everyone else is, like, hanging on the fence like they're watching a minor league baseball game or something.
03:10
Peter Dunn
And chris and I was like, you want to come up here? They're like, no, actually, I don't want to do a voice like that because I don't want it to be, like, insulting. They're like, no. And I was like, we can. We're all just hanging out, cheating for our teammates. And they're like, no, there's people over there. And I was like, yes, there are people there. And they'll see us. And I was like, yeah, they will see you. And I was like, are you upset you're in your soccer training kit and you don't want to see you or your hair is up? And they're like, no, but people will see us. And I was like, okay. And then they're like, and we can see them. And that's just embarrassing. And I was like, well, when you're at school, you see people, right? And they're like, yes.
04:00
Peter Dunn
And I was like, is that embarrassing? No. So it's like this thing. Kristen, how do I get my head around this?
04:09
Kristen Ahlenius
I have no idea. I mean, I empathize with the people.
04:12
Peter Dunn
Thing, but get me wrong, I don't like people either.
04:16
Kristen Ahlenius
But I like what I'm saying. I didn't want to say it, but since you said it, I'm cool with that.
04:22
Peter Dunn
No, they're like, you're telling me. One of them goes, you're telling me when you were in middle school, if you were at a place where people could see you and you could see them, it wouldn't embarrass you? I was like, not really. And then one of them was like, I don't think so. And I was like, okay, well, don't. That's fine. That's great. I love those girls.
04:39
Kristen Ahlenius
Eons ago when I was in middle school. Yeah.
04:44
Peter Dunn
Anyway, I'm opening to miguel, so we make sure the show is good.
04:48
Kristen Ahlenius
Excellent. Is miguel espresso or just coffee?
04:52
Peter Dunn
It's actually just coffee. It is a cold brew coffee, 100% colombian, and it's delicious. And so we're excited about that. All right. Jameson notes that damien has hair. Yeah. Kristen, by the way, congrats on your promotion. Very excited for you. Director of education, you have a special knack for communicating what people need to know about money, and that's very special to us around here. So I'm really proud of you. Congrats on your promotion.
05:20
Kristen Ahlenius
Thank you.
05:21
Peter Dunn
All right, here's what we're going to do this week. This whole topic this week is shame in preshow. Kristen, I sang shame to fame. I'm going to live forever, like from the 80s show fame. And then you said I wasn't alive then.
05:37
Kristen Ahlenius
I was not living at that time. No.
05:39
Peter Dunn
Yeah. Which then brought up the topic, when you aren't born yet, are you dead?
05:45
Kristen Ahlenius
You're dead?
05:46
Peter Dunn
Are you dead before you're alive? Is it dead, alive, dead and then alive depending on your belief?
05:53
Kristen Ahlenius
Life is binary. Dead, alive, dead? Yeah.
05:56
Peter Dunn
Okay. I think that's it. Okay, so let's start the show. We're going to start with a segment, a question from a listener, which was my Indianapolis Business Journal column this week. Then we're going to talk a lot about shame. There is an amazing book that I will recommend during the show that I don't want to give away just yet. Plus, because I had to look up the title that talks about shame. Anyway, Kristen, what are you reading right now? Are you reading anything good right now?
06:27
Kristen Ahlenius
Actually, no. I read, like, 60 books last year, and then this year I just kind of fell off of that wagon and haven't really picked anything up. I'm very like all or nothing when it comes to reading.
06:40
Peter Dunn
I am, too. In fact, I am currently on three books. I've got two business books and a pleasure book going. Pleasure books, just like a dumb spy. Know where I feel like I'm relevant.
06:50
Kristen Ahlenius
You and Chad.
06:51
Peter Dunn
Me and Chad. And then the two books I'm reading right now, I'm reading an amazing book that I think I'm going to ask that everyone read at our organization called Crucial Conversations. It's great book, just about communication in difficult circumstances, like how to make sure that you're doing it right. And then the other one I'm reading is called Give and Take by Adam Grant, which I talked about on the show last week. I still recommend everyone read that, too. Okay. Who. No one cares. All right, let's start the show in oops, not ready. Go figure. You knew that was going to happen. We're having a cocktail party here at the office later today. Happy hour. I'm making cocktails for people. Kristen, I know. The glory of being a remote employee.
07:35
Kristen Ahlenius
Yes.
07:36
Peter Dunn
So at 330, pop open a Fresca and poured over some tequila. Do whatever you want.
07:43
Kristen Ahlenius
Tequila. I have to work until nine. I cannot drink tequila at I don't know.
07:49
Peter Dunn
You do you? In three, two, one. This week on The Pete the Planner show, we answer your money questions. Here's how the show works. You email us. Askpete@peteepeplanner.com that's, askpete@peteeplanner.com, and here's what will happen. Sometimes I'll actually read it on the air, and today I'm going to do just that. Normally, joining me on the show is someone not related to me. His name is Damien Dunn. He's not with me today. So I introduce another person who is not related to me. She is the director of education at Your Moneyline, an organization that I happen to work for. Her name is Kristen Alanius, and she joins us now. Kristen, hello.
08:23
Kristen Ahlenius
Hello. Happy to be back.
08:25
Peter Dunn
Oh, yeah. I was just about to say welcome back.
08:27
Kristen Ahlenius
Yes.
08:28
Peter Dunn
To the show. Kristen, I asked you earlier this week what you wanted to talk about this week, and you said, you know, what about shame? So the whole show is dedicated to financial shame. Briefly, did something motivate this? What's been on your mind?
08:44
Kristen Ahlenius
Well, I kind of shared before the show that some variables in my personal life that people have opinions about in respect to money, and that kind of triggered the conversation for me, I think is, like, for me right now, like I said, going through a little bit of change and having that shame that's associated with it. I was like, I think there's something else here.
09:07
Peter Dunn
I agree. And I got an email this week, and I wrote about it in the Indianapolis Business Journal. I want to share it now because it really hits on this topic. Dear Pete, my son is graduating from college next month and doesn't have a job yet. Time out. So, Kristen, the person certainly got three pieces of information out so far. Number one, the letter is addressed to me. Number two, they have a child graduating from school, and there is no job yet. Do you read into the fact that because you read emails for a living right. For people asking financial questions, I always think it's interesting in what order people give you information. So this person is, I have to say, bent currently.
09:45
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah. I think leading with and using the word yet, I think is very telling.
09:51
Peter Dunn
Yeah, it feels like a tap of the finger. It's like, come on.
09:55
Kristen Ahlenius
Exactly. Yeah.
09:57
Peter Dunn
Our goal was for him to move out of our family home upon graduation and write into an apartment. This plan is less and less likely to happen, as it seems he's running out of time. Well, I feel like we may have been right with our guests. My concern is there won't be an ideal time for him to make the transition into his own household. This already is starting to feel a bit like a failed effort. Any advice? Kristen, we are on the radio and on a podcast, and, yes, live streaming to the Internet. But you did grimace there. That I did. The listeners may not have picked up on what makes you grimace there. Oh, Kristen has frozen up. Kristen has frozen up.
10:45
Kristen Ahlenius
Oh, no.
10:46
Peter Dunn
Oh, no. You're back.
10:47
Kristen Ahlenius
I'm back.
10:48
Peter Dunn
You recovered with the oh, no. What gives you pause there?
10:55
Kristen Ahlenius
I think that it's just a lot of pressure, and it's a lot of decisions to make at once, and it feels a little harsh. It feels a little shamed. So I guess it just caused me to kind of pull back a little bit because it felt harsh.
11:13
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes what we're talking about is the concept of launching. Right? I mean, it's sort of the popular way we talk about having someone leave the nest. And the reality is, all launches are different because all people are different and all circumstances are different. And there's two components to a launch that I think people sometimes lose sight of one of those launches. Kristen the first is obvious. It's the physical notion that a person no longer lives in the household. That is a practical thing. It is pragmatic. So that's one side of it. The other side of it is the person prepared to create their own stability. And that's where this thing gets real sticky real fast. Kristen stability when a person starts their own household is vitally important.
12:04
Kristen Ahlenius
Absolutely, yeah. And when you think about stability, especially if there's going to be a rental, mean the upfront cost associated with jumping out of the nest. If that's what the child is doing, it's pretty significant. So by the time you have the income locked down and then the expense associated with moving the expense associated with setting up that household, I think that the stability won't be there at this point. But I also think that's okay. It sounds like the parents not okay with that, but I think that's okay.
12:37
Peter Dunn
Yeah. I think it's interesting when a person starts their own household for the first, because this kid theoretically has been subsidized his entire life. So what he doesn't yet understand is that he is going to start his adult life with a past. Theoretically, if he has student loans, he will also have an obligation to create stability for his future in the form of savings and retirement savings. And then he has yet to choose a lifestyle that allows those other two elements to coexist. And so I think whether the person launches upon graduation or launches six months later, I don't think anyone should launch until you've taken into account those three time elements.
13:21
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, I think that's totally fair. And maybe the perspective for the parent here is if the child is moving their financial life forward, if they're putting in job applications, if when they do secure that income source, if they're saving money for that down payment, the parent is actually kind of in a position to help launch the child. Right. Because if you can live with your parents or if you can save those additional dollars when they do launch, they'll be a lot more stable. So maybe looking at it as maybe a six month opportunity versus not being ready is a better perspective.
14:00
Peter Dunn
I agree. I think the biggest mistake that can be made, there's two giant mistakes that could be made here. One's, aggressive, and it is like, get out, figure it out. That makes no sense. It reminds me of like, when a kid learns to ride their bike without training wheels. The context matters. You have to let go of the seat at some point in time so they can pedal, but maybe not on a downhill or maybe on a curb going into traffic. The context matters. The other giant mistake, and I've seen this one so many times, is that, okay, I'm going to stay at home with my parents. I'm going to get on my feet. But then instead of using that margin to pay down debt, to even simulate a rent payment, by saving that additional amount of money, the person increases their lifestyle immediately in discretionary areas like food and entertainment, and then they're stuck because they can't ever simulate that rent payment and they're there for years.
15:05
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah. I think it's very dangerous. I think that you have to be really mindful if you're the child and you do secure that income, to your point, you have to simulate that rent payment. You have to be saving for the cost associated with launching. Not everybody's able to do that. That's a really hard thing, too. And there's no shame in that, right? In saying that you have a hard time not spending money that's made available to you might have to take some really proactive steps to make sure you can get that done.
15:38
Peter Dunn
Yeah. The rest of this episode actually is about shame. This concept that other people's opinions or perceived opinions or the perception that those opinions even exist, can drive not only feelings, emotions, but action. And so, Kristen, I'm curious before we go to the break here, when you think of shame, and this is a personal question, do you think of it more as a primary motivator for you or a demotivator for you?
16:14
Kristen Ahlenius
It's a motivator for me, and that's probably not the healthiest thing because I probably care too much about perception of me. Just in general, it motivates me, but not probably in the best way.
16:29
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I think about it the same way I think of stress, that stress is a motivator. Shame is a motivator and it's an actual great initial motivator, but it's wholly unsustainable. Absolutely. And it can create a tremendous amount of damage. So I will answer that same question. Yeah, I probably am probably more motivated by shame than demotivated by shame, but I'm an action oriented person, too. I tend to not sit on ideas or thoughts. I tend to act. So that's the fact. So let's do this. Let's come back after the break. We're going to talk about shame. How has it impacted people's finances? Where can it go wrong and where can it go right? That's all next on the Pete the Planner show. I'm Pete the planner. I want to just start calling myself Peter Dunn. Should weigh on this? I don't know.
17:21
Kristen Ahlenius
No.
17:22
Peter Dunn
Sort of like, how long can Steve from Blues Clues be Steve from Blues Clues? At some point, he's just steve eternity.
17:30
Kristen Ahlenius
No, he released that video on Instagram and millennials freaked out and it's been like two decades.
17:36
Peter Dunn
I don't know. I'm just thinking, like, I might be done with it.
17:39
Kristen Ahlenius
Nah.
17:40
Peter Dunn
Peter Dunn was the former CEO of Steak and I yeah. And I also have to know there was a Peter Dunn and I could get my facts wrong. This there's some allegedly about the beginning here. I believe there was a guy that was like the head of CBS Television named Peter Dunn, and I believe he may have been relieved of his duties due to misconduct in the workplace, if you know what I mean.
18:05
Kristen Ahlenius
Good. So maybe sticking with Pete the planner.
18:08
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I'm able to stick with Pete the planner. I don't know. Okay, Kristen, let's get into shame. By the way, it is nice to have Damien Dunn in the comments right now of the even though he's wrong. Yeah, he says something. So earlier in the show were talking about, of course you know this because it's not like you picked up the podcast 18 minutes in. By the way, if you happen to just started listening at the 18 minutes mark, you're not going to understand the previous reference. But just for your information, we're trying to just like prior to being born, you're not alive, are you dead? And Damien's theory here is something that hasn't been created can't be dead. It simply doesn't exist. I don't know.
18:52
Kristen Ahlenius
I disagree.
18:54
Peter Dunn
All right, Jeremy asks Pete, is this a midlife broadcaster crisis changing your name? I don't know, maybe it is. But I think people around at least Your Moneyline offices know that I am full support of Dpeating as much as we can. It's enough about me. Let's just bring on some other voices. All right, so you ready to do the shame thing here?
19:22
Kristen Ahlenius
Yes.
19:25
Peter Dunn
Okay, where shall we start? What shall be the elementary question? I got it. What role does shame play in our financial lives? So we'll talk about housing, we'll talk about college choice, we can talk about cars, we can talk about clothes, we can talk about instagram. All right, in three, two, one. Back on the Pete the Planner show. It's the shame game. That's right. You're listening to a brand new episode of The Shame Game. It's the game where we talk about the role of shame in your financial life. Our special guest co host for this week on the Shame Game is Kristen Alanius. She is the director of education at Your Moneyline. Kristen, I asked you what you wanted to talk about this week and you said shame. And I was like, oh, we're going to have a whole show around shame. And you were, no, Peter, I meant shame on you.
20:18
Peter Dunn
And then yet we're doing this topic. Kristen, how much do you think popular culture influences.
20:31
Kristen Ahlenius
Mean? I don't I don't know what the percentage is, but I think it's far more than we give it credit for or want to give it credit guess.
20:41
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to get too deep into the keeping up with the Joneses thing because I'm so over that whole thing, but I will note the first moment I felt shame, I think from a financial perspective, there's always jealousy and comparison. Like that's a thing outside of money. Well, you don't remember I was dead. There was a show that's right. There was a show, you'll know, this show on MTV back in the day called Cribs. I mean, you're familiar with the concept?
21:13
Kristen Ahlenius
Yes.
21:14
Peter Dunn
It's not a new concept. It is not an old concept. It's a concept exists. You go to a notable person's house who happens to have a lot of wealth, and they show you all their stuff. And one of those elements of the show, for some reason, on Cribs was the celebrity would always open their refrigerator, and in most cases, the refrigerator was stocked with copious amounts of beverages all lined up in a row like soldiers ready to be deployed onto the battlefield. And I remember watching that for the first time as a young married person. This is like the year 2000 thinking, I need beverages in my fridge. I have great shame over this. Do you remember the first time you saw something in pop culture and you thought, what's wrong with me? I don't have this.
22:03
Kristen Ahlenius
I think my generation is semi defined by the Coach purse. That was a really big deal. I definitely think that's one is like, did someone have the signature Coach shoe or signature Coach purse? That was a big deal.
22:21
Peter Dunn
Just so you know, that same mechanism, that same manifestation of shame has carried over into my daughter's generation as a 13 year old. Yeah, the Coach purse has become part of my life like I never thought it would.
22:37
Kristen Ahlenius
Is it popular?
22:38
Peter Dunn
Again, I don't know. My daughter's into it, but I don't know if that makes it popular or not. Yeah, I think what's interesting about shame is that it can lead people to a really bad financial place. I think the first place that really starts with college choice.
22:53
Kristen Ahlenius
Yes.
22:57
Peter Dunn
Let's just speak in pretty blunt terms here. There are some colleges that are sexier than other colleges.
23:03
Kristen Ahlenius
Absolutely.
23:05
Peter Dunn
And I think that's unfortunate, right? Because in many instances, a person should probably get a less expensive, less extensive degree, but the stigma that comes with that, which is driven by shame, ends up putting that person in a bad spot 100%.
23:24
Kristen Ahlenius
I just had this conversation with someone, a participant and her kid, and they were just like, we don't know what to do. We can't afford this. And I was like, let's look at more cost effective options. And they ended up choosing, like, a community college, like, satellite campus type offering because the price tag was just not comparable at all.
23:47
Peter Dunn
You remember a college sweatshirt day at your high school? Did you guys ever have that? Yeah, I mean, part of it's there because you get the top ten kids in the class. Right. By the way, I was not in the top ten.
24:00
Kristen Ahlenius
I was not in the top ten.
24:01
Peter Dunn
Yes, you were.
24:02
Kristen Ahlenius
I was not.
24:03
Peter Dunn
Come on.
24:04
Kristen Ahlenius
I was not.
24:05
Peter Dunn
I'm not buying it.
24:06
Kristen Ahlenius
I wasn't. I'll send you my transcript.
24:08
Peter Dunn
Please don't. Top 20?
24:11
Kristen Ahlenius
Well, there were only, like, 120 some kids that went to my school.
24:16
Peter Dunn
So top ten kids are wearing like, Yale, Harvard, Notre Dame, those sorts of things. But then a lot of the kids that made the smarter choice from a financial perspective, they're not wearing that sweatshirt.
24:33
Kristen Ahlenius
No. And the smartest choice might have been to not go to school at all.
24:38
Peter Dunn
Isn't that the truth? Because if you're constantly told by society that college is the next path, then you feel shame if you don't go to college. Yet depending on how you're wired, it may make absolutely no sense. I have no numbers here to share, but I will say anecdotally that I do believe there is a fair amount of people out there that their financial life has been temporarily ruined by the shame they felt in the idea of not going to college. Therefore they started college, didn't finish, ended up with debt, and now they have regrets.
25:17
Kristen Ahlenius
Absolutely. And without giving away too many details, there was an adult who was influential when I was making a college choice who said to a lot of people at one time that if we didn't go to college that we would work in a factory our whole lives and nobody wants to do that. And I was just like, wow, that's a terrible thing to tell influential young minds. And it's also not true. You can do whatever you want to do and school's not for know.
25:48
Peter Dunn
I feel like we've just hit the point of emphasis for the show today in the sense that so often you hear people say in conversation, you don't do this, you're going to end up being a garbage man, you're going to end up being a janitor, you're going to end up being a Walmart greeter. If you don't save for retirement, you're going to end up being a server here and there. It's like, explain to me again why we're marginalizing those people.
26:13
Kristen Ahlenius
Right? I do not understand. I don't get it.
26:17
Peter Dunn
People love the haves and have nots. And the more have nots you can create in your mind, the further you are away from being a have not. And so that's this idea of like, I know educators, of course, and school counselors, they want to push you towards being your best. But just as they treat us or teach us to not treat others poorly to make ourselves feel better, I don't think they have to make it a binary choice between college and being what they deem to be destitute.
26:48
Kristen Ahlenius
Definitely not. So now I take back what I said earlier about how life is binary. That came right back and got me.
26:55
Peter Dunn
How about housing? For me, the shame comes with renting. This is idea that if you're renting that you're a second place citizen and that your life's out of control. And I think this is also tied into the movement of homeownership is the American dream. And if you aren't a homeowner, then shame befallen upon your house. Do you have thoughts on that?
27:22
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, I think there's a ton of shame there. And people love to throw the phrase out you're paying off someone else's mortgage and it's like, I mean, sort of, but it's not like your entire rent payment is paying off their liability and there's a lot of risk there for them. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with renting. I think that you have to know if renting is the right thing for you. I think you have to make a proactive decision about whether homeownership or renting makes sense where you're at in life. But I don't think that it's as black and white or binary as just like, oh, renters are second class, or whatever phrase people are using.
28:02
Peter Dunn
Yeah, it's interesting to me, this topic, because sometimes if people will move into a home so that they are homeowner because they have shame in renting, yet it will instantly set their financial life back a decade or more because they don't necessarily have an emergency fund or the ability to maintain the home. And so they're instantly in debt and it becomes an issue. I'll tell you this before we hit the break here, years ago, this is probably 2007. It was 2007. I know of a company where the CFO was doing homeownership courses because within the culture of the organization, they had made the determination some way and shape and form that people were better if they were homeowners than if they were renters. So this was in 2007. I think it was something like 47% of people who went through this CFO led class for homeownership ended up in foreclosure within 18 months.
29:03
Peter Dunn
And it was just another example of how shame, even at the workplace, can set someone back. So here's what we're going to do. We're take a quick break. More on the Pete the Planner show. It's the shame game. We'll see you in a moment. We'll see you in a moment. Kind of rookie ass. See you in a know the person's, like going to the hardware store right now on Sunday indiana listening to this and they're like about to run in and buy some ant. Yeah, we saved the bees, save the spires, screw the ants. And they're like, oh, we got to get out because he's going to see us in a moment. Maybe he's a greeter at the store because he didn't go to college. That's how it's all tied in.
29:43
Kristen Ahlenius
At least you turned your mic on today.
29:46
Peter Dunn
That's true. We started the show. I couldn't hear Kristen as were doing pre show and new mic. New mic. Dane sent it to her. You got a whole new setup and you didn't turn the mic. You know, I mentioned the Walmart greeter thing. That is one of my biggest pet peeves when we talk about retirement planning is there was a period of time, and this is probably before your time and maybe you. Tell me where people were like, got to do this. You're going to end up being a greeter at Walmart. I found that just to be a disgusting binary choice and I'm curious if that was your experience.
30:29
Kristen Ahlenius
Absolutely. I still think it's like.
30:34
Peter Dunn
Don'T know.
30:37
Kristen Ahlenius
People love to have opinions and then those who live in glass houses, I think is how that know.
30:45
Peter Dunn
The book I was thinking about actually, I'm going to look it up. I was talking about there's a book about shame that I and then my friend Nadia from growing up, she was in the Facebook chat here, she mentioned that Brene Brown obviously does a lot in the area of shame and empathy. And we of course love Brene Brown around our parts. This book that highly recommend about shame is called So You've Been Publicly Shamed and it's by John Ronson. That's John with no h because he's from the UK. John Ronson. So you've been publicly shamed. If you've never read a John Ronson book, here's what you're going to get. You're going to get your new favorite author. Cool. You will read this book, my recommendation hopefully, and then you will go through his entire catalog. He is a nonfiction writer who writes about current events in various ways.
31:42
Peter Dunn
He is hilarious. And if you happen to be an audiobook person, like to, he reads the audiobook, his voice, and he's incredibly talented. Kristen, adding to your list, do you think?
31:58
Kristen Ahlenius
Oh, for sure. I mean, when I get back into reading, when I get back to that point, absolutely. I wrote it down. It'll be on my list.
32:07
Peter Dunn
I don't want to deviate too far off the financial path, but I think something worth noting around shame is that I think in pop culture today, especially as it world events and politics, it's not enough to disagree with someone or to share a different perspective. There's this feeling that you have to prove them wrong and then shame on them for not seeing it the way to and that sort of sucks.
32:36
Kristen Ahlenius
It does. Because even to have an opinion or like to post an Instagram caption or a Facebook caption, I immediately think through, is someone going to disagree with this? Or when I write content for us, I'm like, is somebody going to disagree with this and just rake me over the coals because you're right, it's not enough. I have to be wrong and you have to make sure that I know that I'm wrong.
33:00
Peter Dunn
Yeah, it drives me crazy. I mean, that's really pulled me off of social media. Same I was talking to Oz, our business operations manager here this week, and we're just talking about like it's interesting to see people who continuously put their life out. And for me it's weird because I was that person at one point in time. I put a lot of my life out on social media and I really don't that much anymore. And I personally had. It sort of an awakening that way. And for those people's sake, I hope they do whatever they want to do. But you wonder if that awakening is coming for them as well.
33:35
Kristen Ahlenius
But it's also polarizing. And some people, I think, like that. So it's not for me. I'm too soft.
33:43
Peter Dunn
You know, the other thing I thought about this week and deep philosophy here on the Pizza Planner show podcast and live stream is, do you remember a period actually, again, our different generations, there was a point in time where if I had a dumb thought about something or an unpopular opinion, no one knew it. No one knew it. There wasn't a mechanism to get it out there. So think about this for a second. Of our acquaintances and our friends, our close friends, people's names we know all of a sudden. We know so much about their opinions on so many things that it's easy to find a reason to not like people anymore, where at one point in time, you kind of gave people the benefit of the doubt because you didn't know what they thought.
34:35
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, absolutely. And in the comments, Rick has our next segment, I think.
34:42
Peter Dunn
All right, well, big Rick Swank brings it every week. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like it's gotten more common for people to get shamed for success, or at least for living as if they are successful. Expensive cars, houses, meals, et cetera. OOH, I like that. Can we talk about that?
35:01
Kristen Ahlenius
I like that a lot.
35:02
Peter Dunn
Okay, so this next segment is going to frustrate people because I'm about to defend the billionaire.
35:09
Kristen Ahlenius
You're in trouble.
35:10
Peter Dunn
I know. And I'm okay with your email. I know. Well, I don't read my email anymore, let me tell you. Okay. So feel free to shame my email about what I'm about to say right now. I've gotten to a point in my career where if someone's going to email me and tell me how much I suck, I have someone else checking that email. That, my friend, is success. I'm just kidding. I'm not kidding about someone else checking my email, but I am kidding that I'm gleeful about it. No, I'm not kidding about that. I am gleeful about it. But you know what? All right, in three, two, one. Back on the Pete the Planner show, talking shame today, when I talk about shame, I think of one person. I'm just kidding. Kristen Alanius is our special guest co host this week. She's the director of education at Your Moneyline, a company that I happen to work for.
36:07
Peter Dunn
Hello, Kristen. Once again.
36:09
Kristen Ahlenius
Hello again.
36:11
Peter Dunn
So we live stream this show every Friday, 10:00 a.m. Eastern to various platforms, which are generally platforms used to induce shame amongst others. And one of our frequent listeners, big contributor to the show, a guy named Rick, notes during the break. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like it's gotten more common for people to get shamed for success, or at least for living as if they are successful. Expensive cars, houses, meals, et cetera. So, Kristen, when I think about this, my wife was an educator for a number of years, high school English teacher. And at one point in time I owned a Lexus. And when I bought the Lexus, I believe used the Lexus dealership, gave me a Lexus Travel coffee mug. And so Mrs. Planner took the Lexus Travel coffee mug to school one day with her morning coffee, and a kid walked by her desk.
37:14
Peter Dunn
Again, I'm not making fun of 16 year old kids. And he looks at it and he goes, Must be nice like that. But again, he's a 16 year old kid. Who cares? But when I think about shame for people who have different things than others, I think back to that moment. Mrs. Planner and I oftentimes will talk about that. We all sort of laugh. It must be nice. We say that a lot. That sentiment sort of works its way around as people have different lifestyles.
37:46
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, I had a good friend of mine make a similar comment about the vehicle that I have. Must be nice if I had your money. Like, well, work on your budget, I guess. I don't know what to tell you.
38:00
Peter Dunn
And it's a weird thing because, one, I don't believe in shaming people who don't have things.
38:07
Kristen Ahlenius
Absolutely.
38:07
Peter Dunn
But it's just as silly to shame people who do have things absolutely.
38:12
Kristen Ahlenius
Or to make assumptions about what that means underneath. And I got busted for that. I told you this story the other day that I saw a very expensive vehicle in town, and one of my friends was like, she made a comment. She was like, oh, man, I wonder who drives that. And I was like, Somebody with too much debt. And I caught myself. I was like, Wait a minute, maybe not. You never know.
38:34
Peter Dunn
It is tough. I mean, we learn from an early age to not judge a book by its cover, but that goes both ways. So during the break, I mentioned to the podcast and live stream audience, I'm going to take a stance here that I will probably regret, but I do feel this way. While I understand the reason behind the antibillionaire movement, I totally understand it. Like income equality, wealth inequality, tax issues, I get it. I get the argument. But just the general shame on the wealthy, I just don't get that. And by the way, I'm not saying that as like, an uber wealthy person, because I'm not. I'm saying that I just don't get the logic. Well, if a person happens to have money, that disqualifies them as a reasonable person.
39:30
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, I don't really understand that narrative. And to your point, there's a lot more to unpack there, but just on the surface to be like, oh, well, this person doesn't produce anything, right? Or they founded this company and they have all this money. I don't really get behind that or understand that either.
39:50
Peter Dunn
Yeah. What's funny, in politics, both parties sometimes will paint the opponent in an election or primary or whatever. They'll paint the other person as an elitist because they've achieved something or they have a certain level of education, and that in itself makes them out of touch with people who don't have that same education or have not achieved that same level of success. And what I think is the most fascinating thing about that, Kristen, is both parties do it equally, just depending on where in the country you're at. So to me, it makes it incredibly ridiculous.
40:29
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah. And you also don't know how someone lives, even within their lifestyle, too. So just because someone you might have a perception of how much money they make or how much money they have. You don't know how much of it they're using or they're living off of either. They might be living off of a third of their income. You don't know what they're doing with the rest of it.
40:51
Peter Dunn
Nadia on Facebook Livestream notes, people assume people with that much money are corrupt. I think that's the basis of the belief and that they are using the little people to advance disproportionately. No, I think that is certainly the rationale that people feel. I remember when I was in the financial services industry as a producer. Isn't that fun? When a financial advisor is called a producer? I remember being at a conference. This was Kristen talk about not being around. This was in 1998. This was the summer of 98. I was a junior in college. Kristen.
41:29
Kristen Ahlenius
What?
41:30
Peter Dunn
You should not be laughing in my I'm sorry.
41:32
Kristen Ahlenius
I was living. I was okay, barely.
41:36
Peter Dunn
Barely, barely alive. Barely. So it was summer of 1998. I was at a national conference. I was a college financial advisor, believe it or not. I was a financial advisor in college. Like is an internship, but they call you whatever. And I'm at this national conference, and they do the top ten best producers for this company go on stage. And it got to this point where the guy sitting next to me, who was from my branch office, sort of whispered to me and he said, here's what people don't realize about the top ten people on the stage is that 60% of them are crooks. Because what they had to do to have that level of success in this business is shady. Now, is that gospel? Is that true? Is it an offhanded, uninformed comment? I don't know, but that happened in 1998, and I remember that, and I don't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
42:34
Peter Dunn
So I do think there's some truth to that idea.
42:37
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah. I mean, it was a core memory for you, apparently, and that's what I was going to ask you, is if you felt like it was true, or now, looking back, if you feel like that was a true statement.
42:49
Peter Dunn
Yeah, but that just feels like a hot take ready to be delivered. You know what I mean? It's hard to not be in the financial business and to not know a crook story.
43:01
Kristen Ahlenius
Sure.
43:03
Peter Dunn
What's also weird, this show broadcasts out of central Indiana. There was this run about 15 years ago, maybe less. I'm bad with time that central Indiana was like the hotbed for Ponzi schemes.
43:17
Kristen Ahlenius
Really?
43:18
Peter Dunn
Oh, my gosh. It was truly like there was ponzi scheme on Ponzi scheme and the weird thing and no, I'm not the connector to all of these people. I knew, like, three people involved with Ponzi schemes, but not well, not acquaintances. We weren't Facebook friends.
43:37
Kristen Ahlenius
Okay.
43:39
Peter Dunn
But yeah, it's sort of trend. Anyway, back to shame. So, Kristen, I think our takeaway or our hope of thoughts we want to share today, is it's worth examining your relationship with Shame as the giver or receiver? And I highly recommend if you're going to go down this path, sit down with a beverage, talk to someone, you're one of your favorite people to have deep conversations with and have it. Kristen, if you're going to have a shame conversation, who are you having a shame conversation with?
44:13
Kristen Ahlenius
I don't even want to say it because his ego is going to get so big, but one of my best, he's going to tell me how it is.
44:21
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I'm trying to think if I'm having a shame conversation, frankly, I'd probably have the conversation with Dame. Yeah. Dame and I on our weekly what? I was we start off with some pretty wild things. By wild, I mean talking about publicly shaming people over finances. So wow, we're a couple fun guys. No wonder I have to host my own cocktail parties at work for anyone to hang out with me. All right, Kristen, here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back with biggest waste of money of the week. We're going to invite our field reporter this week, Damien Dunn, to file his field news report as we examine shame. I wonder if he added any shame ridden stories to the news. This know, I do have to note there was a shame related story this week with student loan forgiveness.
45:11
Peter Dunn
And actually, I would have to note the whole forgive people student loans movement is rife with shame on either side so much. It's just like, man, we love shaming people. All right, coming up after the break, biggest waste of money of the week and the news right here on the Planet show Peter Dunn.
45:33
Kristen Ahlenius
See, Damien is furiously searching for an article about shame right now.
45:38
Peter Dunn
There he is. Hello, big man.
45:39
Kristen Ahlenius
Welcome.
45:41
Damian Dunn
I've got three articles that may qualify about shame that may qualify for shame.
45:47
Peter Dunn
How you doing, man?
45:49
Damian Dunn
Oh, hey. What'd I miss? Anything important other than just having my opinions totally dismissed and not really acknowledged too much.
45:58
Kristen Ahlenius
We'll talk about it at my quarterly review.
46:00
Damian Dunn
You bet we will.
46:02
Peter Dunn
Dame. Hi. How's your morning?
46:06
Damian Dunn
Hi. It's been really productive. I haven't had people to bother me, do stuff.
46:12
Peter Dunn
It's been great. Sounds like those are shots at both Kristen and I. Yeah. Thank you.
46:18
Damian Dunn
Take it out. I don't know.
46:20
Kristen Ahlenius
I don't work until 01:00 p.m., so it couldn't have been me.
46:22
Peter Dunn
Dame, your team has grown significantly here in the last month or so just for people to get a feel of what your life is like. Just name the areas of the country of people that you get to work with on a regular basis, because it's pretty fascinating how our team is built.
46:41
Damian Dunn
Virginia. Soon to be Texas. We've got New Mexico, we've got Utah, we've got California, Indiana. So we're all over the place right now, literally coast to coast.
46:58
Peter Dunn
I was talking to our business operations manager today, and every time we hire someone in a different state let me tell you about the paperwork. Oh, my nightmare. Anyway, okay, biggest waste of money in the week. Are we ready for this? I guess that's a question for me.
47:18
Damian Dunn
Can we acknowledge Grant's comment?
47:20
Peter Dunn
No, I didn't see on hold on. Grant? Oh, dame's. Right. Dame's right. About the things that have never lived yet are not considered dead. Dead is the past tense of to die. To die, something must first be alive. Something that is not yet alive can't be dead. I mean, that's just so much better said than the way you said it.
47:44
Kristen Ahlenius
So logical.
47:45
Peter Dunn
That Ashley coming off the top row. Ashley's the one doing the paperwork. Oh, man. By the way, Nadia, who's been commenting throughout the show today, old friend, I grew up together. We used to ride the school bus together back in elementary school and middle school. So shout out to Nadia. All right. So isn't it nice that people who grew up with me will still acknowledge my presence? That is nice.
48:15
Damian Dunn
That's one. One person. Pete true. That's one people. You said people. Person will still acknowledge my existence.
48:25
Kristen Ahlenius
From the top rope.
48:27
Peter Dunn
Man okay, enough of this. In three, two, one. This week's biggest waste of money of the week right here on the Pete Their Planner Show is the Buna Tandem Shower. Sharing a shower has its drawbacks. That's a great piece of copy. Hold on. Let's just acknowledge that sharing shower has its drawbacks. Buna's Tandem Shower offers a solution for a more enjoyable experience. The rod like attachment adds another shower head to your space, extending between the two walls of your bathroom and attaching to your existing shower head with a hose. It adjusts to accommodate people of all heights. And a valve can shut off the flow when only using one head. With three settings, the pressure is always on point. And by running one shower for two people, you're saving water. Installation is quick, easy, and requires no plumbers or contractors. Dame, what do you think?
49:37
Damian Dunn
Are you trying to shame people who want two heads in shower that have just a standard shower right now? I feel like you're looking down on people who are trying to come up with a cost effective option here.
49:51
Peter Dunn
I feel like I'm hunkering for a talking to from HR a little bit, maybe. Dame, what do you think it costs to take a shower with someone? What do you think the Buna tandem shower costs?
50:04
Damian Dunn
Are we talking city prices or a little bit more rural?
50:08
Peter Dunn
Yeah, I'm talking about like, if you were to bring this to the country, what do you think you're paying to it's a Kickstarter item, by the way. The Buna tandem shower is a Kickstarter item.
50:21
Damian Dunn
I'm going to go with 169, 99 excellent.
50:29
Peter Dunn
Brittany and Facebook live notes 249, 95. And she's actually right. It is $249 to have a showerhead extension where you can shower with someone. I do have a shower story if I can share it here on the show briefly. This is not going to go the way you think, trust me. Especially when I get out the first sentence. When Mrs. Planner and I first got married, I was under the impression that were like, buddies and we could play pranks on each we're lifelong buddies. You mess with each other. And so I remember once we first got married, she was like, up in the shower and she was upstairs, and I was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to fill up a cup full of ice water and then go and pour it over the top of the shower door on her.
51:28
Peter Dunn
And this was like a month into our marriage. This is like August of 2000. That day I learned that were not buddies that could play pranks on each other. I have you ever seen a very small wet person get angry?
51:49
Damian Dunn
I'm curious what it felt like to get your butt kicked by a naked woman.
51:53
Peter Dunn
Yeah, well, what's in the news this week?
51:55
Damian Dunn
Dame us. Home prices in March were up 15% from a year ago, an increase that is expected to contribute to a slowdown in home sales. The pandemic's home buying frenzy is starting to ease, and the volume of home sales is reverting to pre pandemic levels, said National Association of Realtors Chief Economist Lawrence Yoon. With mortgage rates at 5% and climbing the highest since 2011, mr. Yoon said he expects home sales this year to be down 10% from 2021. The median existing home price in the United States is now guessing game.
52:34
Peter Dunn
Oh, guessing game. Okay, kristen me. You go first and then I'll go. Or do you want me to go first?
52:41
Kristen Ahlenius
You go first.
52:42
Peter Dunn
The median home price dame, I feel like we did this months ago and I'm going to blow it.
52:46
Damian Dunn
I'm going to go months ago. It has changed pete.
52:54
Peter Dunn
I'm going to go $420,000.
53:01
Kristen Ahlenius
No.
53:03
Damian Dunn
Kristen, would you like to guess a more intelligent guess?
53:08
Kristen Ahlenius
I was going to say like 275.
53:14
Damian Dunn
Well, as normally happens, Rick Swink brings logic to the conversation in the comments. He is exactly right. $375,000 is the median existing home price in the United States. Faced with a white hot real estate market, renters are losing confidence that they will ever own a home. On average, only 43.3% of renters expect to own a home at some point in the future, down sharply from 51.6% in 2021, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
53:46
Peter Dunn
Kristen, do you get this feeling that Dame is somehow underhandedly trying to ruin your.
53:55
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah, I do.
53:56
Peter Dunn
He has no context. I have context, and he's still doing it.
54:01
Kristen Ahlenius
I know. Can you believe that?
54:03
Damian Dunn
Reality is not always kind, Peter.
54:06
Peter Dunn
I know. I own a mirror. What else is in the news?
54:10
Damian Dunn
According to a CBS News UGOV survey conducted last month, americans are split on whether they pay more than their fair share in federal income taxes or if it's just right. 45% of respondents said they pay too much, 47% felt like it was all right, and 8% actually want to pay more. Some other great tidbits here 19% of those under 30 were much more likely to say they pay less than they should for their taxes.
54:41
Peter Dunn
Well, as the only person under 30 on this show today, kristen, do you pay the right amount of taxes? Not enough or too much?
54:55
Kristen Ahlenius
I think I pay too much in taxes. But what's interesting about those numbers is that didn't like, 56% of Americans pay no federal income tax last year, so how do those percentages even match up?
55:09
Peter Dunn
And that's why you're the director of education.
55:11
Kristen Ahlenius
I think the number was, like, over.
55:17
Peter Dunn
So what's interesting about this question is and I think this was ultimately going to be Dame's point that I'm stealing from him it's hard to ask this question without acknowledging the person's view on the money that the government does get if they do a good job with it, right. Dame, that would be the direction you would go, correct?
55:37
Damian Dunn
Sure, but I'm not being paid to give points. I'm just reporting the news in an unbiased fashion today.
55:46
Peter Dunn
You're well over 30. Do you think you pay too much in taxes? Not enough or just the right amount?
55:54
Damian Dunn
Too much.
55:58
Peter Dunn
I'm trying to not be a contrarian here. I think I pay the right amount or maybe not enough. But I would also say that as an individual and not as an employer, because as an employer.
56:16
Damian Dunn
Holy Moses, Pete. You know, kind of what's going on in my life right now. We got reacquainted with quarterly taxes this past. I'm a little sore still from thinking about that.
56:31
Peter Dunn
It's the worst thing. Let me tell you about the two worst things in the world. A jello salad that has both fruits and nuts in it. And quarterly taxes. Those are the two worst things in the world.
56:47
Damian Dunn
Yeah. You know where this whole tax thing kind of goes off the rails and I question the rest of the numbers, is this little bit only 6% of the people who said they were getting a refund this year say they're going to use it on something fun or special.
57:06
Kristen Ahlenius
No.
57:08
Peter Dunn
Kristen, you have talked to people for years, all day long, about their finances. What percentage of people who get a tax refund do something fun or special with it? It's not 6%.
57:19
Kristen Ahlenius
Well, the majority.
57:20
Peter Dunn
Yeah. Right?
57:22
Kristen Ahlenius
Yeah.
57:23
Peter Dunn
I think it's flip.
57:24
Kristen Ahlenius
It's most people because it feels like free money or like a bonus when it comes back from the government.
57:31
Peter Dunn
I do have to make a point of admission if I do get a refund, which occasionally I do, but not really, but if I do, I usually put it in my kids college fund, which to me is fun and special.
57:43
Kristen Ahlenius
But I think I'm a nerd a little bit, maybe. Yeah.
57:48
Peter Dunn
Then we have time for no more stories. Kristen, thank you for being on the show this week. Kristen will be a more frequent contributor here to the Pete the Planner show, the Peter Dunn Show, as it's going to be maybe called at some point in time. Dame, thanks for stopping in. Hopefully you were able to sleep in a little bit, have brunch and then come and do the news.
58:06
Damian Dunn
Oh, yeah, it's totally what happened this morning.
58:07
Peter Dunn
You're a big brunch guy. That's all we have time for this week. Sending good vibes, because good vibes are all that's in the budget. I'm Pete the Planner. This is the Peter Dunn show. I don't know, the mid show rebrands sort of seems like a bad idea.
58:21
Damian Dunn
That's not a great idea. If you thought people didn't believe weren't related before, introduce it as Pete and Dame Peter Dunn and Damien Dunn. That's not going to go well.
58:30
Peter Dunn
So I'm just making a list, Kristen, of the people I have to talk to after the show, based on this show. So I've got my first call with human Resources and then I'm going to be talking to our marketing department, so this is great. I feel like this is a good show.
58:42
Kristen Ahlenius
Some work for you on a Friday. That's good.
58:46
Peter Dunn
Damien, you're going to be upset? You're not going to be at the cocktail hour this afternoon at the offices?
58:51
Damian Dunn
Nope.
58:51
Peter Dunn
Why not? Upset? I was hoping to shame you.
58:56
Damian Dunn
No, I would love to have attended that. It would have been great. I remember the good old days with the treat trolley.
59:02
Peter Dunn
It would have been great. I got coming out today. Well, I've set up a bar back at the host desk, the reception desk. We don't have a hostess. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but we have a reception desk and I'm going to stand there and make cocktails tonight, but I do need to find the treat trolley train whistle. It's somewhere in the office because I'm going to have to go old school and blow it.
59:29
Damian Dunn
Did it make the trip to the new location?
59:34
Peter Dunn
It's here somewhere. And Rick also brings up another department I may be speaking to after the show. Don't forget the conversations you're going to have with Mrs. Planer about the ice.
59:42
Damian Dunn
No, no. Rick is assuming she's listening.
59:45
Peter Dunn
No. The last time Mrs. Planner listened to this Don't, I couldn't tell know, but I think it's just the maturity of our relationship. We don't tend to just talk about my world when I'm not home. You know what I mean? I don't really want to talk about my show anyway. Awesome. Dame, any quick thoughts on shame that you want to share? I know we excluded you from that conversation.
01:00:15
Damian Dunn
It's dangerous for everybody involved but the people that are doing the shaming because it's really clouding how their worldview and the people that are around them and got their own issues that they need to deal with, but it's also doing damage to the people they're trying to shame. And even if they think that's intentionally, what they're trying to do get over it, man. Move on.
01:00:38
Peter Dunn
One of my favorite sayings ever is and Kristen, I pre apologize for the first part of this. When you're in your 20s, you care what people think about you. When you're in your 40s, you don't care what people think about you. And when you're in your 60s, you realize that no one was thinking about you the whole time. And to me, that can be the summation of shame. So I hope to be 60 soon, not only in just sensibility, but this temple of a body.
01:01:05
Damian Dunn
When are you going to get your new balance, Pete? That's what I want to know.
01:01:07
Peter Dunn
Yeah, my new balances. I think my running shoes are new Balance, man. That's it. That's all we got. So. Thanks, Kristen. Thanks, Dame. Everybody else stay getting money.
