June 11, 2024

Are zombie mortgages an actual threat? And if they are, should you have already known that?

In this weeks episode, Kristen, Dame, and Pete explore zombie mortgages. Then they debate who's to blame.

Episode Transcript

Peter Dunn: [00:00:00] As a podcast, we collectively ran a half marathon last weekend. So my teammates for that relay are here with me now, none other than dad himself, Damian Andrew Dunn. Hello. Hello, Pete. Kristen Elaine Alenius, hello to you. It's so much better. So one of us ran a half marathon last weekend. Kristen, I understand it was not me and no offense Dame.

But Kristen, how did it go?

Kristen Ahlenius: I participated in a half marathon is what I did to say that I ran. It would be generous, but it was fine. The weather was great. The atmosphere wasn't the best for a half marathon I've ever done. I've done, I think. Four or five. And this was probably the least fun as far as the people were concerned, but you'll have that.

Peter Dunn: Will you, were you satisfied with your [00:01:00] results? Whatever they might have been.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yes. Was there walking? There was walking 13 miles is a long way,

Peter Dunn: gentlemen. I mean, look, are we talking about walking to pick up a water cup, to rehydrate, or are we talking about strategic walking? There was strategic walking involved.

I think that's great. I think it's healthy and smart. Dame, is walking count in running a half marathon?

Damian Dunn: Some people have really strong opinions about this. If you walk, you didn't run a half marathon. You may have completed it, but you didn't run. We're going to get really, really into that right now. So I would say if you walked, you didn't run a half marathon, but you did complete it, which is not to be taken lightly.

You know, pooh poohed. It is a major accomplishment.

Peter Dunn: Isn't it different? No, it's no different than oh, I read that book, but what I actually did is I listened to that book. Isn't it the same difference?

Kristen Ahlenius: Yes. I don't think that's the [00:02:00] same.

Peter Dunn: So, Kristen, are you feeling, you should, in my opinion, you should not feel any less accomplished for what you accomplished.

Kristen Ahlenius: Right. Yeah. Here's, here's my, my really transparent view on that, which is that if you didn't do it, you don't get it to say. So if you were not someone who participated in any way, shape or form, you don't get to have an opinion on whether I ran or participated in a half marathon. Hey,

Damian Dunn: Kristen. Hey, Kristen, how long is a half marathon?

Kristen Ahlenius: 13. 1 miles.

Damian Dunn: Approximately how many did you complete? 13. 1 miles.

Kristen Ahlenius: Actually, there's a really funny story about that. Do we have time? Wait,

Peter Dunn: you didn't actually complete the hat. You put,

Kristen Ahlenius: wait, this didn't. So here's what happened. The half marathon course was on the same course as at the same time, a 10 K and a five K and very, yeah.

And at the very end, all of the courses [00:03:00] came together. And at the very last turn, apparently the half marathon was supposed to go left, and everyone else was supposed to go right, but I didn't look at the map beforehand, because it was in an area I'm not familiar with. So like, I was like, I don't think looking at this map is actually going to do anything for me.

Like, every race I've ever ran, clearly marked. Not clearly marked. I cut, I cut half a mile off the course. You're a cheater. I am a cheater. I got to the end and my Apple watch said that I hadn't run a half marathon. And you know, sometimes those things are off. Like it's not exact. So I was like, huh? So I go to my sister and my cousin who were there, who had completed the half marathon.

And I'm like, did we only run 12 and a half miles? And my sister was like, No . So I had to figure out how I cut the course off and we were looking at the map and I'm pretty confident that that's what I did. Had no idea. In the moment, [00:04:00]

Peter Dunn: if you're just joining us now, you're listening to Cheater Peter and Dame , the financial radio.

Kristen, I know you cheater.

Kristen Ahlenius: I did. I cheated. And the thing is, you guys, I'm such a perfectionist. It bothered me all day. I couldn't let it go. Wow. What a, I couldn't, what a fraud. I know. I am, I'm a fraud. My medal, I should give it back.

Peter Dunn: Dame, how many marathons have you completed? Half marathons, I should say.

Zero. Really? Yeah. Why would I do that? I don't know, that's a good point. Not really on brand for you. No. I think I've done five, four or five. And never cheated. Alright, although Mrs. Planner says listening to music while you're running a race is cheating. She's, she's, she's not great. She's not great.

Damian Dunn: What does she just listen to?

Like the, the cries and groans of, of people around her. I mean, what, I don't get it.

Peter Dunn: She locks in, she used to think sunglasses were cheating. She's hardcore. She was an all American runner in college. So she's, she's, [00:05:00] she ever ran barefoot. Because that's

Damian Dunn: cheating. Good learning with shoes is cheating.

Peter Dunn: Fair.

Okay. You know what? Feel free to take it up with her. Okay. Sure. And good luck with that. Sure. Steve says speaking for myself, I walked part of the St. George 70. 3 running portion. And I was very disappointed at myself. 70. 3 meters is not that far. You shouldn't have to walk. Steve. Did he mean miles?


Kristen Ahlenius: meant the half iron man. Steve.

Peter Dunn: Steve. That's huge. All right. Before we get started, fun show today, Thursday show, tomorrow's lake day at your money line, where a portion of people who are centrally located go to a lake and wear swimsuits. I'm uncomfortable with that. I will have on a long sleeved UV.

protective shirt and I will not be half nude in front of my coworkers. Is that fair? [00:06:00] Yeah. Yeah. It's actually fair for everybody.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah, but you've probably lost like 15 pounds on Weight Watchers by now.

Peter Dunn: 14 in 24 days. I actually emailed my doctor this morning. I said that was a lot cheap. Nevermind.

Doesn't matter what I said because it's a HIPAA violation if I were to talk about it. Also it has come to my attention that That certain people are listening to this show and then dry snitching to others about the content of this show. So if I am going to slander a man's cat. If I'm going, you cannot go to that man and talk about his cat that it was talked about on the show.

Do we understand ourselves?

Kristen Ahlenius: What is

Damian Dunn: Johnny snitching? I think you're probably referring to something I didn't do, but I'm guessing he's pointing at you.

Peter Dunn: We have come to the attention, it's come to our attention that there are cat guys here at your Moneyline. There are two. One of said person who doesn't listen to the show had a friend tell him that we talked about his cat [00:07:00] Lana on the show.

And now he's coming to me saying, why is there Lana slander on your show? Well, you're not saying it was one of us. No, no, it wasn't you. I'm just saying I'm talking to the audience I right now i'm talking to the listener You can't talk about what's on the show. It's fight club You can't talk about the show to anyone who's not listening to the show.

I don't think that's how marketing works

Kristen Ahlenius: Whose cat did we even talk about?

Peter Dunn: A certain finance person. Yeah You

Kristen Ahlenius: I don't remember that.

Peter Dunn: Really? Oh, man. Okay. Let's do the show.

Speaker 4: I don't.

Peter Dunn: Okay. Oh, let me get my don't pull up the calculator. Don't pull up the calculator. Oh, I almost did. I'm crazy. Three, two, one. What this week on the Pete, the planner show, we answer your money questions.

Here's how the show works. You email us, ask Pete at Pete, the planner. com that's asked Pete at Pete, the planner. [00:08:00] com we may email you later. We may email you back meow. Kristen Alaneous joins us. Damien Dunn joins us. Kristen recently participated in a half marathon this past weekend. Kristen has the soreness subsided.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah, actually, I really wasn't as as sore as I expected.

Peter Dunn: Dame living vicariously through our co host and leader. Kristen, has your soreness subsided? Yeah, but I would expect that if I only covered

Damian Dunn: twelve and a half miles.

Peter Dunn: When we did 30 seconds of show prep this week, it occurred to me that there was a very, dare I say, controversial take on student loans put out there in the ether.

And you guys told me I. Might have a reaction to this and I know nothing more than that. So it's with that, Dane what was said about student loans in the last week or so that have people

Damian Dunn: up in arms? At a recent event, United States vice president Kamala Harris [00:09:00] spoke about the importance of homeownership.

According to Harris, we know that homeownership is probably the most effective way to build intergenerational wealth. Harris recommended using the intergenerational wealth to your advantage in a way that may not be immediately obvious. Quote as a parent, then as a homeowner, if you have some equity in your home, you can say to your child, you know, don't take out the loans.

You said I'll take out some of the equity to help you pay for tuition so that you don't graduate with extraordinary student loan debt. And so you, when you graduate, you can do your dream job. End quote. This can't be real. There's video. Watched it myself. Watch

Peter Dunn: it with my own eyeballs. Okay. Disclaimers. No, no, there's got to be a couple of disclaimers.

Number one, if you have paid for your child's education via home equity loan the reality is you did what you had to do. And it may not have been your preference to do that, but it's what you [00:10:00] did and great number two, whatever comments I'm about to make or no longer play or no, it's not necessarily political in nature.

Number three, what's a terrible idea? It's a horrible idea. It's a terrible idea.

This is where I get concerned is, is number one, Dame you and I have actually talked about this for years about this, you know, homeownership being an American dream and how politicians on both sides will often promote homeownership because it makes the economy go up and it feels like people are thriving.

But to then say, Go do something that's inherently a really bad idea For what? It doesn't even, why would you say that?

Damian Dunn: I don't, I don't know because you Don't fully understand the issues at play here. Yes, intergenerational wealth is, is important It can be a huge [00:11:00] springboard putting yourself in a position At risk of losing your home is never a good idea.

Once upon a time, you might have argued that this was a little less bad of an idea when you could write off the interest on a home equity loan for, for stuff like this, but you can't anymore. So that, I mean, that just goes right out the window. I,

Peter Dunn: and home equity loan rates are higher than student loan rates.

Correct. And they're, I mean, the only thing, I mean, the amateurization, let's think about this for a second. Would that impact this? I'm sure it wouldn't like the term. Sure. Yeah. I, I just can't, I can't see it,

Kristen Ahlenius: but the statement itself is just so contradictory, like even without other insight into like those variables, home equity loans, student loan rates, et cetera.

Hey, homeownership is a great way to build energy generational wealth, by the way, take some of the money out of that intergenerational wealth [00:12:00] for college. Like, the statement itself doesn't even make sense.

Peter Dunn: Yeah, because then therefore, you don't actually, as the parent, benefit from wealth creation because you sap the wealth creation and then it no longer is creating generational wealth.

Right. Yeah,

Damian Dunn: that's a tough one for me, Dame. I saw it and I sent it to Kristen and I said, man, I wish Pete would be able to play audio on our show, but but we read it and I think I probably read it in a more dramatic way than, than it was actually spoke. So I'm happy. And this also fundamentally goes

Peter Dunn: against like this really big idea that a student loan should be paid for by the student.

Well, like this is saying a parent should borrow for college as opposed to a student. Now, she might say, or the argument might be, oh, then the kid pays back the home equity loan. And well, that [00:13:00] also doesn't make any sense. No,

Kristen Ahlenius: no, because we see that with parent plus loans all the time. They're in the name of the parent.

They have an agreement with their kid to pay. And then the kid doesn't want to pay.

Peter Dunn: Again, I, I've tried to not talk tough over the years as a personal finance expert, but preemptively choosing to borrow money for another person's education is a, is a bad idea on the surface and very deep below the surface.

Damian Dunn: Yeah, I, I just don't, I understand the desire of parents to want to make sure that their kids and the education and have it better than they had it. And great. The time to plan for that is well in advance of your child going to their freshman. You're trying to figure out how you're going to pay for it.

And if you can't pay for the education, figure something else out. Don't put yourself into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt because yeah. [00:14:00] You feel like there's an some obligation because there's no guarantee that your kid's even going to graduate college right now. Here's what also

Peter Dunn: doesn't make sense with the trend of people putting down lower down payments.

There's not the equity to actually borrow against. Right. And, and then, yeah, the housing market's still. Theoretically growing is still increasing in value. But a, if you were to tap a home equity line to play pay for freshman year, are you just re tapping on years two, three, and four? Like what? It doesn't make any sense.

I like, I want it to make sense. Cause I, I, I don't like being cynical. But that's, again, for someone who gives advice for a living, that's bad advice. Bad advice.

Damian Dunn: Yeah. I, I can just imagine Elizabeth Warren sitting in her, in her office just shaking her head like, what are, what are we doing? Yeah, that's actually

Peter Dunn: a good [00:15:00] point.

That's, that, that is, that is what you are saying, Dame, is. This is not political because so many people in her particular party would just fundamentally disagree with the economics of her.

Damian Dunn: Elizabeth, Senator Warren has written a book on personal finance, and I haven't read it, but it seems like it's pretty highly rated on Amazon for whatever that's worth.

So you would think that there's a basic knowledge of what is. Isn't a good approach to paying for something like college.

Peter Dunn: I know we are going to talk about something called zombie loans here after the break, but I also want to mention that there was huge press this week about how the zero down mortgage is back, you know, that you put zero down the mortgage.

You, you know, you take a 97 percent loan. And then you take a 3 percent term loan, like a two or three year term loan on the two to 3 percent down payment. So you borrow the down payment, then fund the rest. And, and that was a big [00:16:00] tool, a plan back in 2005, six and seven. And then. The housing meltdown and it's back, which is wild.

Like, how do we not learn from these things?

Damian Dunn: I would assume they're, they have a hot new name and better packaging and they're, they're the best thing since sliced bread.

Peter Dunn: And they're being they're being packaged, you know, they're being bundled and sold as CDOs anyway. Well, this week we started the show with complaining, but after this, we move on to different complaining, zombie mortgages.

What are they? How can someone come back a decade and a half later and say, Oh, That mortgage that you thought you were no longer responsible for. You are responsible for it. And you owe the money to me and you've never heard of me. I've never sent you a statement and the interest rate is higher. Oh, that is next right [00:17:00] here on the pizza planner show.

I am Pete the planner. I usually don't like to be that negative, but that

Damian Dunn: was, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Awful advice. I had to watch it multiple times just to make sure I didn't misunderstand.

Peter Dunn: Did you listen to either side of the comment? Like was there a context that we weren't read into? Do you know?

I mean, let's just be as fair as we can be.

Kristen Ahlenius: Wasn't the beginning of the quote the start of the response, Dane?

Damian Dunn: Yeah, I think so. They

Kristen Ahlenius: like asked her a question, I think is how that, it may have cut her off early, but I'm pretty sure the start of the clip was like, we asked you this question, what is your answer?

Peter Dunn: Because even if you're saying, well, for people in a worse economic situation, this is a good thing to do. I would just disagree. You've got a lower rate with a student loan. Hmm. And it, I don't, I just, I can't see it

Kristen Ahlenius: in it. That argument falls apart even quicker [00:18:00] because the lower your expected family contribution, the more likely your student is to qualify for Pell grants, subsidized loans, et cetera.

So use those dollars at lower cost institutions like the home equity shouldn't even have to enter that conversation.

Can you read it again?

Damian Dunn: Please hold. Sorry.

I wish I could do a really good impersonation, but I can't. No, that would seem offensive, so let's just read the comment. As a parent, then as a homeowner. If you have some equity in your home, then you can say to your child, you know, Don't take out the loan I'll take out some of the equity to help you pay for tuition so that you don't graduate with extraordinary student loan debt And so that when you graduate you can do your dream job

Peter Dunn: now, by the way Can I just say as a in the spirit of disclosure?

My dad borrowed from our home to put me through college. Like he, he did that's decision. And he was a business [00:19:00] owner. So Dame, as you know, with a business, the balance sheet looks a little different in terms of liquidity. And so it made sense. And it made sense at the end, but it wasn't like for years, we decided to buy a home so we could use it to send a person to college.

So it was in fact, how I was put through college. And full disclosure, but in today's housing environment and interest rate environment, all those sorts of things, like for it to be the strategy going in is not a good idea.

Speaker 5: Nope.

Peter Dunn: And no, I'm not closing the door behind me. All right. Who wants to describe a zombie loans?

Not everybody at once will talk over each other and the audio will be bad.

Kristen Ahlenius: I will, but I have questions because I was a mere child.

Damian Dunn: Oh, geez.

Kristen Ahlenius: During the housing market crash. This

Damian Dunn: is so stupid. Oz, if you're listening, I'm filing a complaint after after the show. I [00:20:00] feel I was very passive aggressive.

Peter Dunn: Okay, well, let's make fun of her on the air in three, two, one.

Back on the Pete, the planner show, whether you're of normal age or so young that you don't understand things. Welcome back to the show. Kristen. Speaking of Kristen during the break was making fun of how old Damon I were. So it's only fair to slander her on the air. Anyway, Kristen zombie loans, help us understand what they are.

Kristen Ahlenius: So zombie mortgages, I saw this piece on, I believe NPR and then saw it a few other places as well. And I just want to introduce the concept first and then we can unpack the reality of this. Oh,

Damian Dunn: can I get a timeout? Oh, sorry. I wasn't paying attention.

Peter Dunn: Yes. Right.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yes.

Peter Dunn: Game. If she got this from NPR, we are gonna need her to read this in an NPR voice.

Kristen Ahlenius: I will

Peter Dunn: not be doing that. Nope.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah. It's

Peter Dunn: required by law. Go ahead.

Kristen Ahlenius: Okay. Funny. So So thousands of Americans are at risk of losing their homes over what's being called a zombie [00:21:00] mortgage, where all of the sudden they are getting these notices, whether in the mail, one woman claimed that they were auctioning her property in her front yard and she had no advance notice because apparently there were balances on loans against their home that they didn't know about.

And how, how, how

Peter Dunn: can you have a balance on your

home that you don't know about?

Kristen Ahlenius: So that's a phenomenal question because first of all that would, would that lead to, would that suggest that we've never refinanced along the way?

Peter Dunn: Well, because if you're going to refinance the, and again, I'm going to use words incorrectly here. Like, aren't there liens and whatnot in terms of like, you have to, you run your credit report, you would see them on there.

Kristen Ahlenius: Not only that, but depending on your Loan to value ratio. Well, I guess maybe they wouldn't do a title search if you were already the previous owner to uncover any other [00:22:00] liens against it. But to your point, Pete, yes, you would think that your credit report, but that all of that falls off in seven years.

So if someone didn't refinance from 2008 until Whatever seven years after that is, then it wouldn't be on their credit report.

Peter Dunn: So basically Dame investors have been going in and buying these debts and for pennies on the dollar, and then going to collect those debts. That is as old as the, the, as time itself, right?

Like that is a tale as old as time. Is that what I'm trying to say? Yes. That's pretty common happens in medical debt all the time. Happens in credit card debt all the time. Actually. It happens in subprime mortgage lending all the time. But when you think that your debts were forgiven for whatever reason, and then they don't send you a statement in, in form of collection, Kristen, apparently this is the out that these homeowners might [00:23:00] have that since they were not notified on a monthly basis, they can't have accumulated all of those that interest in arrears, right?

Kristen Ahlenius: Right. Yeah. The attorney that they had on the episode said that it's required by federal law to be sending statements. So she said that their greed, they being the collectors is actually working against them because without those statements they have the homeowners have a leg to stand on, if you will.


Peter Dunn: the quote. So they interviewed a guy named David Gordon and he runs a company called Ark Private Equity. Dame, do you have it in front of you? Yes. All right. So if you would like to be the you be Arnold Kristen, you're Smith and I will be David Gordon. Oh,

Kristen Ahlenius: sorry. I don't have that in

Peter Dunn: front of me.

I just have Gordon's quote in front of me for the news article. All right. Well, Dame, you are Arnold and Smith and I am Gordon. Where are we starting? We are starting with my name is David Gordon. I run a company called Arc Private Equity.

Damian Dunn: Goodness gracious. Wow. Okay. All right. I got it. You are you [00:24:00] are David.

I am Arnold and Smith. Yes. Okay. I just read the line. This is going well.

Speaker 5: My name is David Gordon. I run a

Damian Dunn: company called Ark private equity. Gordon says people often think that their loans were canceled, but in many cases, he says they still exist.

Peter Dunn: It's not like they went away. And I think people were waiting on the sidelines to collect on those at some points.

Damian Dunn: They were waiting because if you foreclose on a house, the first mortgage gets paid back first. Any money left over goes to the second mortgage. So back to the housing crash, homes weren't worth enough to even pay back the first mortgage. But home prices are up. That's why there's more money for the debt collectors to go after.

If they foreclose now and sell the house, there's enough money to pay back both mortgages. Nothing is

Peter Dunn: free in this world. And if you signed up for a loan, you know what you signed up for. It blows my it just, you know, it is what it is. You slimy son of [00:25:00] a man. First of all, Dame, great NPR voice. That's what I was looking for.

That's really great.

Damian Dunn: Wow.

What, what's the chances the guy is guys, friends call him gecko, Gordon gecko

Peter Dunn: private equity earns it stripes apparently. So Kristen, that is a nightmare that you think your loan is gone for a very long time. And all of a sudden it's back. What could, what could prevent this from happening to people?

Like, let's, let's talk about like, how can you prevent. This popping off and then there you go.

Kristen Ahlenius: Well, that's actually a really great, great question because in the piece they talked about, there's not a database to just search for this. And who knows whether the institution you were working with from that long ago even has those records.

So that's a really great question is if you still are in the home that you had during that time and there was some sort of modification done to the loan. I mean, maybe starting [00:26:00] there.

Peter Dunn: Yeah, I just keep going back to them the credit report game and then looking at Adverse, you know section but Kristen are you saying it would fallen off by that?

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah, cuz It's, yeah, we're, we're so far beyond that.

Peter Dunn: Oh, David, Dave just sent a picture of David Gordon managing partner standing in front of yachts. Correct.

Kristen Ahlenius: Did you read his bio too?

Peter Dunn: You know, I think I must on the air for, and again, this is, this is, I'm just reading, I'm just reading. Mr. Gordon has over 15 years of extensive investment banking experience from servicing rights valuation and trading at Lehman Brothers, trading mortgage assets at Morgan Stanley's loan originary origination desk to securitizing over 10 billion of mortgage backed assets annually.

David brings his unique expertise at analyzing buying and selling [00:27:00] investment opportunities. Morgan Stanley, the platform was recognized as one of the top three mortgage conduits. In the country during his tenure. He's standing right there in front of a yacht.

Kristen Ahlenius: So

Peter Dunn: if

Kristen Ahlenius: I may, Oh, of course. In his defense, you absolutely should know what you're signing up for.

Yes. However, let's also remember the time in which this was happening to people that modifications were being pushed and that now 15. How many years ago was that, gentlemen? More than 15 years after the fact, the internet now is not what it was then. You cannot just Google these things and find the information to the degree that you can now.

It's not, it's not fair to hold people to the access to information that we have now from 15 years ago.

Damian Dunn: Hey, I just don't understand how do people not have a paper trail if they thought their mortgage was forgiven or [00:28:00] modified I would expect a stack of papers to show this They walked out of an office without any they just got a phone call said hey, it's being taken care of Don't worry about it.

And they said great and they moved on

Kristen Ahlenius: No, no, no, no. I would not expect people to, I wouldn't have kept that paperwork. I don't keep any paperwork.

Peter Dunn: But Kristen, to be fair, if you thought you had a loan forgiven, or you were in this situation, would you not have kept it?

Kristen Ahlenius: It's not that they thought their loans were forgiven.

It's that they thought the modification paid off both the first and the second mortgage. They thought it was all wrapped into one new product. So it's not like they thought they were like getting any free money. They just thought that, Hey, this is the one thing we pay now.

Damian Dunn: But there's paperwork there.

You can't do anything with mortgages without paperwork.

Peter Dunn: You know, I will have to say to this though, the saving grace is the fact that interest was charged in arrears without notification on a monthly basis of that interest being [00:29:00] charged. And that apparently the coin at the crossbow or the silver bullet to slay these zombies, that that is the way to actually get out of it.

All right, Fantastic. More of this debauchery right here on the Pete the Planner Show. I'm Pete the Planner. I should have

Damian Dunn: turned off slack. Aren't silver bullets for vampires?

Peter Dunn: Werewolves.

Damian Dunn: Werewolves?

Peter Dunn: I'm not a nerd. I don't know how fake monsters are killed. You say fake.

I am a nerd. But I, I'm not that sort of nerd. I'm a, I'm a numbers nerd. Not a

Damian Dunn: fantasy nerd. Mrs. Advice is calling me. Should we try and put her on the radio?

Peter Dunn: Nope. No. No. Negative.

So, Mrs. Planner and I were driving down the highway. Sure. The other day and we saw a pack of [00:30:00] motorcycles coming your way. Our, you know, we are going with them if you will. And we're approaching them. We're passing them. They're looking like some rough and tumble fellas, right? A lot of Harley Davidson jackets.

One had a cut, you know, a leather vest with a thing on the, it said like bikers for hope or something, which didn't make me feel they're that rough and tumble, especially when I looked at his setup, like he had his handlebars and all his handlebars, he had a cup holder. And in the cup holder was a Stanley with a straw.

So it was a biker with a Stanley taking sips as he squirts by like 65 miles an hour.

Damian Dunn: It was hilarious. Seems reasonable. Keep that drink insulated and safe and have a strong for a little extra safety. I know we've touched on this, on this show

Peter Dunn: before, this generation, not that generation, 'cause the guy was older than us.

Hmm. Kristen's generation and below cares so much about [00:31:00] hydration.

Kristen Ahlenius: Correct.

Peter Dunn: It's unbelievable how much my children care about hydration Dame. Do your people hydrate? As much as my people hydrate,

Damian Dunn: they kind of are forced to with all the activities that they're in and they well, I guess we're always saying you got a water bottle.

You got a water. You got a car water to come with you, too I mean crap, they've got different water bottles for different Locations in their life.

Peter Dunn: Yeah, mrs. Planner. I'll send the kin school. Oh, here's your water bottle. Thanks It's like what Dame? I want you to imagine your parents sending you to school in sixth grade Dame.

Oh, Damien Damien Damien here Here's a vessel filled with liquids go Learn. No. No.

Kristen Ahlenius: I call this my emotional support water bottle and it goes everywhere that I go. But to be fair to my generation, I think it's because we were told like not to drink water. We spent our whole childhoods being dehydrated.

And then when you [00:32:00] were able to go to the drinking fountain, there was like a little song that we sang and it was like something about like one, two, three, you're done. And like, and everybody just kind of like, keep going.

Damian Dunn: That's a generational banger right there. I've been thinking about, like, playing Little League games.

It's like you know, I need some water. No, like, I need some water. Like, here's a refilled Clearly Canadian bottle. Just go take that and here's your water. We had a fridge, a garage

Peter Dunn: fridge, that was filled with Mountain Dew. Just, just filled, and Diet Right. And RC Cola. RC Cola. Yeah. Yes. And water. Not a water.

Not, not water. Definitely not.

Damian Dunn: Alright. What are we doing that comes outta the hose in the yard. Didn't do that though. You didn't?

Kristen Ahlenius: Mm-Hmm? You didn't drink outta the hose? Not at the lake that I grew up on.

Peter Dunn: I know I said this the other day on the show and I just have noticed it more and more and more.

Literally everyone I know is selling. Nominally priced items on [00:33:00] Facebook Marketplace at this point. And I can't get over it. I don't spend a lot of time on Facebook. I put the show on Facebook and every time I pop on someone selling like a dollhouse chair for four bucks and I'm like, why are you spitting?

I'm like, again, it sounds like, Oh, maybe they need the 4. I know who these people are. They don't need the 4. I don't get it. Just give the, give it, give the chair away. But you're going through the same effort. Not really. You go to Goodwill or you, you set up a chair in your yard for your chipmunks. Like it, it's the same thing.

Yeah, I don't know. You're cranky.

Kristen Ahlenius: A dad.

Peter Dunn: I am. It's Thursday. I don't usually feel good about my life until Friday mornings. And then it's like a three hour window.

Kristen Ahlenius: Lucky us. Yeah,

Peter Dunn: so true. All [00:34:00] right. In three, two, one back on the pizza plan to show, you know, those personal finance offer authors are just out there to get me more money.

How do I know this? Thanks for your purchase. All right, Dame. There's a book that is very popular amongst the set of whatever. It's called die broke, right? Is that what it's called? Dame close. Die was zero. I was zero. Someone asked us a question on the show and I will read said question. I recently read a book called.

Getting all you can from your money and your life by Bill Perkins. After hearing about it from friends, man, what a great read I'm doing. I understand this book might not be for everyone, but it really helped give me a new perspective on financial planning. Since my spouse and I tend to save a lot more than we spend and live significantly below our means.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the die with zero concept. So Dame and I turn to none other than. [00:35:00] Chat GPT itself to summarize the book. So we didn't have to read said book because who wants to have a discussion about a book they had read since I'm no longer in high school English classes.

Kristen, what percentage of the assigned reading in your high school English class did you do and what percentage of this class discussion did you personally own?

Kristen Ahlenius: Damien rolled his eyes because he already knows this answer. The answer is that I read 100 percent of it.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Kristen Ahlenius: And the answer is that I, along with a few of my friends, were always called on as people because the teacher knew that we had done the reading.

So, lots of participating in the discussion. Damn. Same question.

Damian Dunn: Same

Kristen Ahlenius: questions.

Damian Dunn: Less than 50%. Okay, fair. And if I read it, I actively participated, [00:36:00] but I, I tried to hide as much as I could. If I didn't, I think it was a normal approach for a high school student. Before I answer, I just want to say I'm married to a high school English

Peter Dunn: teacher.

And she knows what I'm about to say, and this is why she does not care for me. I read about 13 percent of the assigned texts in both high school and college and participated To the tune of about 92 percent of class discussion.

And that is why I'm a terrible person. Anyway, speaking of summarizing other people's works Dan, we're going to go through and we're going to hit the tenants of die with zero. And then I'd like you to, to evaluate how much it just falls in line with other random personal finance books, including yours truly.

So let's begin with concept number one. Live rich, die with zero. The main idea is to focus on living a rich life, full of experiences and memories, aiming to use [00:37:00] up all your financial resources by the time you die. The author argues that accumulating wealth for the sake of leaving a large inheritance is not fulfilling as living a full life.

Dame, Kristen is this different than other things you read?

Damian Dunn: I think so. I, we, we. Just talked about intergenerational wealth earlier and this kind of flies in the face of that I frankly this would give me a huge amount of anxiety because There's only a couple ways, you know When your time is going to come and that's not how you want to try and wrap your life up, I think so this is not my preferred method of going through your accumulated wealth

Peter Dunn: So Kristen, would you agree that this concept in itself is a bit of a maverick compared to other financial advice?

Kristen Ahlenius: I would definitely agree with that. I don't think that this is the common opinion.

Damian Dunn: Now, I, let me say this. If you had a pension and that was your source of income in retirement, this might potentially be an option. Feasible these days, not so [00:38:00] much

Peter Dunn: really good point concept to time bucket. Your money per man.

I wonder if anyone would I be upset as an author if someone ran my works through chat GPT and then just like gave away the farm on the air.

Damian Dunn: There's no way we're going to make it through all these, so we're not giving away everything.

Peter Dunn: Perkins suggests dividing your life into time periods or time buckets and planning experiences and spending accordingly.

The idea is to match your spending to your physical and mental capacity to enjoy different experiences at different ages. Kristen, is this a hot, fresh take or does this exist in other financial planning books?

Kristen Ahlenius: I think it does exist. I had a professor in college who used to call retirement. Your three phases, the go go, the slow go and the no go.

So I don't think that this is wildly unique.

Damian Dunn: Damn. Yeah. I, I think this is a good approach to trying to figure out how and when you might be spending your money. And it's not going to be [00:39:00] a steady decline. Go go. Absolutely. Cause you're going to go enjoy life. Slow go. You're not going to be doing much of anything.

Hopefully you're not driving on the road and no go. You're going to be spending more money than I think because it's going to be a medical expenses. So it's going to be a little bit of a parabola there.

Peter Dunn: First time in show history parabola has been spoken. Congratulations, Dame. Concept number three, optimize spending for life satisfaction.

The goal is to spend money in ways that maximize life satisfaction. This includes spending on experiences rather than material goods as experiences tend to provide lasting memories and happiness. Kristen fresh steak.

Kristen Ahlenius: I mean, so I think it used to be and now it's not. And now people love to say, like, you can't put a price on memories or whatever, but as someone who likes stuff, let me spend my money on my stuff.

If I want,

Damian Dunn: I think this is really close to what another financial face says. We're meet a city author of I [00:40:00] will teach you to be rich. Pick a couple of things that you really enjoy and don't have any qualms about spending as long as you are. Doing all the necessary saving behind it.

Peter Dunn: Another famous author says there's no problem with a vise, but there is a problem if your vice is vices.

And that author is me. Sorry, that was aggressive. I'm way off the time. The show's two hours later than normal. My caffeine is out of the system. Concept number four, health and wealth interplay. Don't love the word interplay. I'm going to be honest. The book emphasizes the importance of health and enjoying wealth.

Perkins advises investing in health and experiences early on when you can enjoy them the most rather than postponing until retirement when health might decline Dame. Is this not time bucketing your life?

Damian Dunn: Yeah, it's pretty much the same thing, just sort of different way way to go. GPT.

Peter Dunn: Man, I'm, I'm going through these now.

I'm just sort of looking ahead. I think we're out of concepts. Okay. So the point, so you hear the title, you read the [00:41:00] title. It's die with zero. It means. Make sure that you squeeze every ounce of enjoyment out of life, matched up with when you're able to actually enjoy that enjoyment. And while a lovely concept, as Dame says, the unknown expiration date is what makes that, Especially hard.

Damian Dunn: Financial planning would be very easy. If we knew that one crucial bit of information, we could tell you exactly how much you needed, how much you could spend and how much you would need to get in that interim time period in order to make your financial planning work. It's just the unknown. Extend extension of that that retirement that throws everything off.

Oh, I love that.

Peter Dunn: Kristen's internet connection just went down. Yeah, she's panicking so hard right now. She is absolutely flop sweating all over her dogs. All right. So Dame, here's the other element of this that I would love to discuss. I don't, I'll speak personally, do whatever you like. I don't personally [00:42:00] aspire to leave a lot of money to, to my family in terms of setting them up.

I do intend to leave a lot of money to something. Right. And it's, I think it is based in, I would like a legacy outside of my own family. And also I just find it impractical to die with zero. It just seems like really

Damian Dunn: risky planning. The book actually, one of the points here was charitable giving during life.

It would encourage you to give while you're alive instead of at the end of life. And I, I, I

Peter Dunn: like that, but I think you can leverage your money better with really good estate planning. Especially in terms of like charitable life insurance trusts. I mean, you could, you could multiply your money and make a massive impact.

Sure. Sure. All right, Dame, we're going to send out the rescue boats for Kristen, see if we can get [00:43:00] her on a 14, four connection up in Northern Indiana, then we're going to come back. We're going to do biggest waste of money, which arguably is Kristen's internet provider. Yeah. Were you there as well? Maybe.

Dame, I am curious to find out. Whether or not you think this week's biggest waste of money of the week is an actual waste of money or a great use of money. We'll all find out next right here on the Pete the Planner Show. I'm Pete the Planner. Well, well, well. What? Oh, she's quiet again, Dame. Really?

Kristen Ahlenius: For crying out loud.

Peter Dunn: Back

Damian Dunn: from her smoke break.

Kristen Ahlenius: Literally, I'm just sitting here and my stream yard screen said, it like flashed away and it was like, we're sorry, please make sure. And then it like gave me some things to check like my internet and everything else is fine. So I'm not really sure what just happened.

Peter Dunn: You guys are digital. Media team has been putting out internets from [00:44:00] this show.

Yes. I. When I'm not talking, which is rare, I lean back and just stare at the ceiling.

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah,

Peter Dunn: it's

Damian Dunn: so uncomfortable to watch. This is your email. Like three, three quarters of this segment is going to be either you staring at the ceiling or reading slack. Okay, so here's what we, here's what we're going to

Peter Dunn: do on the live stream listeners on this, on this segment.

You have to call me out when I am looking away. I don't, my computer monitor doesn't count. If I'm leaning back or if I'm leaning back or looking back, call it out in the chat. We're going to count how many times I do it. Excellent.

Kristen Ahlenius: Well, it's not going to be that many times cause you do it for like the whole segment.

It's just going to be one long stare.

Peter Dunn: It's like, I'm asleep in court.

I've been sleeping so well [00:45:00] recently. Really? I am averaging over four hours a night of deep sleep, which I've never done. The most I've ever done on average is two. Wow.

Kristen Ahlenius: According to your whoop thing?

Peter Dunn: Yeah, whoop there it is. Thought you knew. Kristen, do you know the song whoop there it is?

Kristen Ahlenius: Yes.

Peter Dunn: Okay.

All four of us on Facebook. Thank you, Chris, for pointing out

Damian Dunn: how many people are joining us. Well, it'd be really embarrassing if the four of you don't get it because we'll know who to go after. All right, let me do this thing and

Peter Dunn: ready. Here we go. And three, two, one. This week's biggest waste of money of the week right here on the Pete, the planner show is.

Original hot fudge. It's hard to beat cold ice cream topped with hot fudge. Time out. [00:46:00]

Damian Dunn: Granted.

Peter Dunn: Dame, is that true?

Damian Dunn: I don't think there's any truth in that whatsoever.

Peter Dunn: Kristen, I feel like it's pretty easy to beat cold ice cream topped with hot fudge. Very easy. That's not a superior flavor. Unfortunately, Most molten chocolate topping is a mysterious mix of high fructose corn syrup.

And coloring agents. Coop's original hot fudge fights back against the foul arrangement with a simple ingredient list. It's just six items long and completely ah, natural despite the wholesomeness. It's still the gooey rich topping we expect and arrives in a wax sealed jar like Maker's Mark, just way more.

Kid friendly. That's Coop's original hot fudge. Kristen, how much is bespoke hot fudge? Oh, do you want ounces? 10 ounces, 283. [00:47:00] 5 grams. As someone who has to weigh their food because of Weight Watchers, I know exactly how much that is.

Kristen Ahlenius: This is anything more than a couple bucks is a waste. Is this 25?

Damian Dunn: Okay.

Kristen Ahlenius: I

Damian Dunn: don't even know how much the corn fructose syrup laden version of hot fudge is, let alone the all natural version.

So I will say 26.

Peter Dunn: 15. But here's the thing. If it doesn't have all of those preservatives, It's a 15 single use item of 10 ounces. Like if you think about how unhealthy those things arguably are, you could also argue that consuming that much of healthier things ends up being less healthy because it's still going to have sugar in it.

[00:48:00] Sure. So it just seems like a big, a single serve 15 for hot fudge just seems like a lot to me.

Damian Dunn: You just break this out at all the parties you host, Pete, and then when you're making ice cream out in the garage. There's nothing I like

Peter Dunn: less than having people to my home.

Damian Dunn: Did you

Peter Dunn: Other

Damian Dunn: than

Peter Dunn: on Thanksgiving.

Oh, but yeah.

Damian Dunn: Yeah. You, do you ever make homemade ice cream?

Peter Dunn: I have. We have like one of those Cuisinart Javis, but I feel like I've made it like one or two times, but I've never done it the way my grandpa would be proud of with the salt and all that stuff.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Peter Dunn: I assume you have one in your barn right now that you're looking at.


Damian Dunn: that I'm looking at. We have two.

Peter Dunn: Dame what is in the news this week as I try to keep my eyes forward

Damian Dunn: and focused and ready to go Live nation confirmed in an sec filing that it was investigating a data breach that affected 560 million ticketmaster customers according to cyber daily the hacking group Shiny [00:49:00] Hunters claimed responsibility and is selling the data for half a million dollars.

No word on if that includes additional fees and surcharges. The information for sale contains credit card numbers and ticket purchase history, but likely does not include passwords per the New York Times.

Kristen Ahlenius: Half a million dollars?

Damian Dunn: That seems low.

Peter Dunn: Seems low. Wait a second. You're, you're committing all this crime and your, your hostage note says five, half a million dollars?


Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah, the risk reward is, the relationship there doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. Sounds like the hackers are a bunch of eight year olds.

Speaker 5: You know what? We're gonna steal this. You have to give us five hundred thousand dollars.

Peter Dunn: Bummer. Dame, what's your go to

Damian Dunn: ransom amount when you steal things?

It would have been a million dollars, but with inflation,

Peter Dunn: that's just crept up. Kristen when you steal Valor by cutting a half marathon course, what is [00:50:00] your ransom amount?

Kristen Ahlenius: This weekend it was some very mediocre grapes.

Peter Dunn: Did you receive a medal for completing the course? I did. Stolen Valor, stolen Valor.


Kristen Ahlenius: guys, it kept me up, like, all night. All night.

Peter Dunn: Well, have another night of poor sleep. That is Stolen Valor. And it happened right here.

Damian Dunn: Daym, what else is in the news? I just wish that medal was on her bookcase in the background. Oh yeah, Stolen Valor on display. A couple fishing with magnets in a lake in Flushing Meadows, Corona Park, Queens last week, reeled in a surprise from the murky depths.

A sealed safe. But unlike Geraldo Rivera blasting into Al Capone's ball, James Cain and Barbie Angostini weren't left empty handed by their find. Upon cracking the safe, they found two stacks of 100 bills totaling about 100, 000. The kicker? With no missing money reports tied to the cash, the [00:51:00] police allowed the couple to keep every penny of that mob money.

I mean, they're fine. They now plan to take the deteriorated money to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing in Washington D. C. to start the currency redemption process, and with their newfound wealth, the two hope to fulfill a lifelong dream of buying a home for their family of five in New York City.

Peter Dunn: The good thing is they can take all three of their children and put them through college with a home equity loan.

Mm hmm. Now they'll have the ability to. Yes. Yeah, that's great. Nothing. Not even a facial reaction from either of you.

Kristen Ahlenius: I made like a face

Peter Dunn: What else damn

Damian Dunn: Oh, gosh, I haven't seen yeah, let's do this one. Now, now that the Affordable Connectivity Program has officially run out of money, lawmakers and advocates continue to debate the best way to subsidize low income Americans internet bills in the future. One trade group says the solution is, quote, staring us in the face, make big tech pay for it.[00:52:00]

Can I get a timeout here? Yes, granted. What? Can you imagine any other service or good where if people can't afford it, they said the manufacturer had to pay for it for them?

Kristen Ahlenius: Can I get a bit of clarity? It's going to be, it's going

Damian Dunn: to be argued that this is a utility. I'm 100 percent sure. Right. But Kristen?

Kristen Ahlenius: As a, as a, what was being paid for originally?

Damian Dunn: Discounted internet access.

Kristen Ahlenius: So the cost, not the installation?

Damian Dunn: Yeah, just the recur, well,

Kristen Ahlenius: because I thought it was more about like providing access to lower income and rural communities, not necessarily subsidizing the ongoing maintenance of those services, which I feel are two different arguments.

Peter Dunn: Can I come over the top rope with even a more intense argument? Mm hmm. As much as [00:53:00] I think free stuff's a little wild, and it starts to feel a little like socialism. Internet is like the great equalizer. I think it, it like provides upward mobility, so I kinda don't have a problem with this.

Damian Dunn: The USF, the University of South Florida.

Yeah, universal service fund is a pool of Internet access and affordability subsidies formed in 1996. It pays for connectivity in schools and libraries, communications, infrastructure in rural areas and low income phone service through the mandatory carrier contributions. However, the system was widely recognized as being outdated and overburdened as it supports a growing number of modern communication services.

Same. Yeah.

Kristen Ahlenius: My, my thing with this is like, we have a job opening right now to work alongside Damien and I, and if someone lives in a really like remote area that doesn't have access to high speed internet, they can't, like, we can't offer them a position. So I don't, to your point, Pete, it provides additional [00:54:00] opportunities.

I surprisingly. Don't have a problem.

Peter Dunn: Yeah, I wonder if like This the internet superhighway. What if we think about this as roads like Roads allow us a person to live somewhere and then travel back to the city does the internet superhighway damn you're cuz you're shaking your

Damian Dunn: head What if we think about this as vehicles sure you bait you buy the vehicle But we're gonna make sure the maintenance is taken care of for you so you can get to work

Kristen Ahlenius: Yeah, but you can't maintain your own fiber line.

That's the problem. I can't go out and fix mine myself after I cut it doing landscaping.

Peter Dunn: Again.

Kristen Ahlenius: Twice.

Peter Dunn: Dame's not loving it. I think it makes sense. Kristen and I agree.

Kristen Ahlenius: I guess.

Peter Dunn: Whoa. Watch out this weekend. The world is upside down. And that is it. And I don't think I looked up. I looked away a couple times, but I did not look up.

All right. We'll see you next [00:55:00] week. Maybe we'll be here and I will note this I'm sending you good vibes because good vibes are all that's in the budget That seems insincere, but it is true. I'm not gonna send you money for listening to the show, but I am Pete the Planner, and this is the show. Good day.

Wow, that was an adventure at the end.

Kristen Ahlenius: That was something.

Peter Dunn: I'm sorry. I mean, look, you can't

Damian Dunn: expect me to be Mark Twain all the time. Got, got one post show guessing game for you.

Kristen Ahlenius: Okay. Ah, great.

Damian Dunn: The share of super commutes, that is 75 miles or longer for work since 2020,

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Damian Dunn: Higher or lower? Lower, higher. By, by how much

Kristen Ahlenius: percentage?

I don't know. Maybe he was gonna get, make his guess. How many people

Damian Dunn: the, the, the, the increase in share of those. Okay. So how many miles, but how many, how many [00:56:00] more of those are we seeing? Versus 2020. It's not that hard. I just guess. 5%.

Peter Dunn: Higher.

Damian Dunn: 32%.

Peter Dunn: How? Why? Why? Why would you do that with, with, with hybrid work?

Damian Dunn: Hybrid work schedules and rising housing costs that have prompted some workers to move further from downtown from the downtown are fueling the trend.

Peter Dunn: 75 miles. It's a long way. I don't know if you know about math. Okay. Are any well, I know I've yet to look at the summer schedule. What

Kristen Ahlenius: was

Peter Dunn: that? I don't know.

I haven't looked at the summer schedule that you guys have prepared, so I don't know who's going to be here next week. I am not here next week. Okay. So Dame is? As far as I know. Yes. I mean, all right. And have a good time, Chris. K S V a Kristen stolen, Valor Alaneas. I love it. It's true. It is true. All right.

That's it. Stay getting [00:57:00] money.